№1 – How to Become a Perfumer with Sai Kandalgaonkar

Embark on a fragrant odyssey with Sai Kandalgaonkar, a Junior Perfumer at Keva. From studying in India to mastering the art in a French perfumery school and now crafting scents in the Netherlands, Sai shares her passion for perfumery as a form of art. 

Join us as she delves into her educational journey, the creative process, and her commitment to sustainable practices in the captivating world of fragrance 🌿

Explore more:
• Keva - Crafting Fragrance: https://keva.co.in/
• V.G. Vaze College - A Whiff of Memories: https://vazecollege.net/
• Grasse Institute of Perfumery: https://www.grasse-perfumery.com/

Connect with Sai for a fragrant update:
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/sai-kandalgaonkar-b6a416108/
• Art stories: https://www.instagram.com/artavecsai/

Ever dreamt about going to space? Connect with Tanya!

• https://www.instagram.com/neparfumer/
• https://www.coachmironova.com/

Transcript

0:00

Once again, it's..? Sai. Sai. Yes. Good. Welcome to not a perfumery podcast where we discuss scents in connection to wellness, art and innovation. My name is Tanya Mironova and yeah, I'm a podcast host for this episode and hopefully for the future episodes as well. Probably I will be recording in this part since it sounds awkward, but basically I'm somebody who likes smells but also likes... to explore how they affect us. guest for today's episode is Sai... No, I have to do it again. Sai kandalgaonkar. Who is passionate about art and practices perfumery as her form of art. Well, she's from India and working in the Netherlands for the Indian company Keva. Thank you. So welcome and thank you for being our guest today. Thank you Tanya. Thank you for having me. My privilege. Well, likewise. We're just, you know, it's always when you start something you feel extremely awkward. But since we had a small talk which lasted for the last three hours, we already could probably share how I even got here to this English-speaking podcast. The thing is that I was a host for the Russian-speaking podcast for the three years, for the last three years. It was quite a journey. I learned a lot. from the guests, made a lot of friends and was constantly thinking about launching an English version. But I was so embarrassed by my English, to be honest. it's perfect. Don't worry about your English. Thank you, but it's probably also perfectly fine to be embarrassed about something and just start doing it. And a small story about how I decided, finally I will do that is that one of, like a friend of mine, we hadn't been communicating for years, but she approached me recently and, well, we had a nice chat and she said that she has a Telegram channel. By the way, who doesn't use Telegram, it's a messenger, something like WhatsApp. But in my opinion, it's much more sophisticated and gives you much more options. It's just way better. She had a small blog there. One of the advantages of this network is that you could have your own Instagram or... Exactly. It could be... a sort of blog, like blogging a messenger, which is very useful so that people who are subscribed to you, they shouldn't go anywhere, they could just log into the messenger and see what's there. And one of the posts which she had, one of the first posts, was her basically saying that, are there any things you would regret you have not done in a year? So what would be the things you would be regretting that you have not started? Since for me the English podcast, the English speaking podcast was one of those things which I've considered. felt like, okay, just... Yeah, just let's do it. And Sai was and is a person who really supported the idea. I was happy when you approached about this idea of having a podcast. I'm really excited. Well, yeah, so you find right people when you have right intention, I suppose. That's also one of the things we've been discussing. But back to the business, back to what we are here for, since maybe not everyone is into this kind of thoughts and these discussions. We are really trying to spread the knowledge about affection in different forms and about perfumery and... not only not even as an industry more but more as a way of life since for many people and for PSY definitely it's the case. I've made a list of awkward questions and I will start from somewhere. First of all tell a little bit about yourself. So, I can take you back to my childhood and I was always inclined towards art and drawing and painting. So that was my favorite thing. And also I was equally inclined in sports. So I was always, I always liked to do something which needs a lot of concentration. And then as I grew up, I started developing an interest in the science and how things work, just to ask how questions a lot. And that's how I decided to do graduation, to pursue graduation. in biotechnology. So I did my three years bachelor's degree in biotechnology and when I was in that college like in India it's called college when you are doing the bachelor. The bachelor's for three years was biotechnology but then in the same college there was like one specific corridor which was which whenever I used to walk through that corridor there would be a different smell always and a pleasant smell like not like the chemicals which come from a chemistry lab. So I was extremely curious to know what is this, like how do they create such good smells and why is it that only one corridor of the whole college smells like this and the rest of the college smells different. So that's what intrigued me to find out that what is it exactly and then I tried to find out okay what is this happening here, I need to understand. So I asked one of the professors, they told me that this is a post graduate course. It's about perfumery and cosmetics where you can learn how to formulate them. And so I looked up on like on the brochure of the college and I asked them like what is the qualification that you need to enroll for this course. That's when they said okay you need a bachelor's degree and there will be an exam and you have to if you clear that exam they will. you will be taken for that course. So instead of doing masters in biotechnology, I decided to pursue this perfumery and cosmetics for my post-graduation. Wow. And then I applied for this course and cleared it and I got selected to be a part of this course. So that's how I did my post-graduation in perfumery and cosmetics. Wow. That's when I realized that there are these professions also which exist because I have a good skin you see like bigger because it's not like often that you go through a corridor and you just see It was in the same college where I was studying that's how I got introduced to this course because it is the only course in India. So you didn't enroll to this college for the perfumery stuff at all? I was there since my after my 10th grade for 11th 12th and for graduation I was in this same University or college and the same course happened to be in the same University that's how I discovered that there is something like this. I never knew about it. So I never knew before coming into this course that there is a perfumer, there is a cosmetologist and you could be a person who is formulating these products because we use on a daily basis but we don't realize that it is also a different industry. And then I realized that there is an FNF industry, fragrance and flavor industry. That's how I got introduced to it and then the journey started. So it was the two-year course, I completed the course and there was like a... placement which happens like placement where companies come take interviews That's how I got placed in Kewa. Aha. So I started my journey in 2016 as a trainee evaluator so it is like you understand how like it's like your first step into the industry and I was very curious and also nervous to start the journey, but yes, it was a it has been a beautiful journey I would say and while I was actually While there was an interview for this job, I was actually open for both, like cosmetics and perfumery. So it depended more on where I land up. So I was open for both because both need scientific plus artistic abilities. So whether it is color cosmetics or lipstick shades, you still need creativity. Whether it is perfumes, you still need both. So I was very much open, but I landed up in a perfumery company. That's how my interest... began to increase in perfumery. So then for a year I was a trainee evaluator then I was promoted to a junior evaluator then that time I was catering to different markets like the Southeast Asia market, the Africa market, the Middle East market and like there was a lot of exposure to different categories of fragrances and smelling those products and that's how I got into perfumery. So that's how I started like that's how the journey started. This journey is very reminiscent of finding a book in a library or finding a magazine in a metro station, like in a train. But yours is sort of like that. I really like this. It's like something accidentally I discovered that there is something like this because that's how it started. So you started working as an evaluator, maybe in a few words to explain to our listeners what do these people do. Yes, so evaluators are people who coordinate with different teams in the organization like the regulatory team, is analytical team, then there is perfumery team like the team of perfumers who formulate fragrances, then there is a sales team, marketing team, so evaluator is a mediator or a connecting link between all these departments and basically an evaluator is a project manager. but I was always inclined towards creation. I always wanted to formulate fragrances. That's why I changed the department from Evaluation to Perfumery. But the role of evaluator is huge because a lot of times the evaluator is the face who presents it to the client along with the marketing person or a salesperson. So most of the times the perfumer is a secret or discreet. huh. project when it is presented to the client, the face is the evaluator or the project manager. But I believe there might be some situations, at least nowadays, when a client wants a particular perfumer. Yes, that does happen. there are set of perfumers who are more famous and who some clients really want it from a specific perfumer. So sometimes even perfumers are promoted or they are now it is more open in the initial years it was more discreet. So I think we are currently in the modern perfumery where things are more open because of social media and so it has become more open. Earlier it used to be like super discreet. I am also a part of the modern world. Earlier, I mean to say like 20-30 years ago, it was quite discreet. No one would know who is the perfumer of this fragrance. Now it is very much open and that's why people want to be, want to have a product from a specific perfumer because that perfumer is well known and like even more talented, like they like specific perfumes created by that perfumer so they prefer a specific perfumer. And I also believe that they could find somebody whose mindset and whose values they share. So if you come to a company and you try to explain like, oh wow, I'm into yoga, I'm into fitness, I'm into this type of nutrition, I'm into these values. And it will take ages from the sales team and from probably evaluator to understand you, they... Like how to bring this information to a perfumer who probably like, I don't know, in my case... who doesn't do sport, who has no clue about wellness trends or who just... Wow! Yeah, so the perfume for that that perfume it would be really difficult to relate with what the client is expecting. Yes. and it will take ages for the team like for the evaluator and sales to like I know this perfume in that case gonna need like a vacation a Retreat in one of the beautiful places you've shown me previously in India. Yeah, just to understand what we are talking about Yeah, and for me as a client if I could imagine myself being there It just doesn't make sense to spend so much time on connecting myself to the person who might you may not connect. Yeah, so for me personally it would be lovely to have a list of perfumers with a short description of their values or what they are up to so that I would connect directly to a person instead of explaining for ages. Yeah, that's really a good idea actually. Thank you. No, I believe that perfumers sometimes like this part probably because they would be otherwise limited to their values and their interests if they never have clients who challenge their values and interests. So they don't have to go somewhere and do something new for them. Maybe they won't feel that way. I don't know. It does make sense. It's like you're in your echo chamber all the time if you are into some values and you come to a person who has the same values. And then it's easier to get the work done. Yeah, but at the same time, those people who are out of this chain, might be also interested to try this and I'm just limiting the interest to the interests they already have. Yeah, so the perfumer could also explore something new which he has not done before. Exactly. The track you've described, when the perfumers are not known, you don't know who is going to be creating your scent, is also quite understandable for those perfumers who do that, since they might have interesting briefs, new clients, new types of tasks. Yeah. It's also for the secrecy part like sometimes it's not disclosed because it's a very secretive kind of thing like formulation and everything. Don't even get me there, because if we start talking about all this secrecy in the fragrance industry, I would be pissed. yeah, going back to your wonderful journey, so you've decided, okay, I want to move to the fragrance department, the perfumery department. I need to learn somewhere. What were the next steps? and a half years of practicing as an evaluator, I moved into the perfumery department then back to square one again as a trainee like an assistant perfumer. So where you assist an experienced perfumer and then you understand how he or she works and why is this person adding or removing some ingredient or what is the purpose of adding each ingredient in the formula. So that's what it's like you shadow the perfumer who is much more experienced. So that I did for like two and a half years. I always want to ask you, this shadowing, does it really... in the software industry for instance, if you shadow something, it does mean that you just simply do his work while they are presenting themselves to clients, etc. Is it the same for the fragrance? No, no, it's like you just learn why they do what they do. It's like that. So because it's really a tricky subject. can learn only limited things from a book, but with a hands-on practical experience, you learn more. So as and when you have projects from different clients, as and when new situation arises, new challenges come, that's how you will learn how to deal with those situations. So it's really important to have hands-on training more than just the book. So that's why. So when you shadow, it's not like you're doing the perfumer's work, but you are learning while you're doing. So it's like on the job training. It's a little bit different than the software industry, because shadowing like there. Well, those who've been there, they know what's that. So yeah, you started looking for, like you worked as an assistant. Yes, and then after two and a half years of working as an assistant perfumer, I felt like I really want to have my basics strong. Like because the raw materials and I felt I want to spend more time with raw materials because that is the building block of a perfume. So I need to know them in and out, like as good as possible. So, and also I wanted to understand a different perspective. not just because I have been always grown and brought up in India, in Mumbai but I also wanted to have a different perspective to the same subject how somebody would look at the same ingredient in a different way. For example, there is an ingredient called DHM, dihydromersinol. I would always think about it like an ocean, smell of ocean and watery and fresh. And when I came to France, I understood, okay, it also like it is citrus, fresh lemon, like that I got to know more specific classification of one particular raw material, like what could be the most precise classification possible. So it gave me a new perspective and how everybody could, how different people can look at the same thing differently. Yet there is something in common. So that's one example. It was too technical, but just one example. Is this material... I remember someone said me once that it's in all men's lotion shaving stuff, isn't it so? mean, lot of it is in the Davidoff Cool Water, has a lot of DHM. So it's more about freshness and citrus freshness. it just gave me a new perspective to every ingredient literally. So that was the main reason I thought of applying to this school. Like I looked up on the internet, which are the different schools internationally, which will give me an international exposure to learn perfumery. So I found, I spoke to lot of alumni's and I took a lot of opinions from whoever worked in, whoever studied in those institutes. then finally I shortlisted one school, which was Jeep, the Grasse Institute of Perfumery, which is located in Grasse in France. So I applied for it in 2021 and it's like a long process. You apply and there are different rounds. You give an exam and... After that I was happy to know that I was selected because they select 12 students across the world. So I was selected for the 2020 BAT. And then I decided to take a sabbatical like a career break for one year. And Kiva was kind enough to give me a sabbatical and I didn't have to resign from the job. I was also on the job while I was studying in France. So that was one good thing because I was not under the pressure of finding a new job after the course. So that was a good part. yes, the one year which I studied, I was totally devoted myself in perfumery. Because grass, as you may know, as you've also visited the city, it is full of perfumes. Like every street is fragrant and it's all about fragrances there. So it was the best place to study perfumery. With all the great lecturers and professors who are also simultaneously a part of the profession. So they are not just teaching you from the books but they are also teaching you all the practical knowledge. was a great experience. So you could say that this program really exceeded your expectations. Yes, the program exceeded my expectations. There were like the cultural exchange with different students in your course who are from different nationalities. So they bring in different cultures. So from Russia as we know. Yeah, well, our common friend has been in the batch, as you say. By the way, was like intrigued by the word batch. You use it from the fragrance perspective, or it is a normal thing. to... because I don't know... The word batch? Yeah, I use it as word cohort. can use it class also. Yeah, but I really like batch as you've said. In India it's very common to call batch like the 10th batch, 11th batch. Batch is like a group of students in that year. Well, probably it's a correct one, but since we are in the fragrance talk right now, in perfumery it's also a common thing to... everything is... like batches are very important. For the smells like you have, might have noticed that probably, to our dear listeners, that the perfume you have... these batches of perfume. If you buy the same in three years, it might be different because it's from a different batch. Because raw materials were from different batches, from different years, from different seasons, different humidity, etc. So that's why it was like, it's too good that you used batch for the people and also like in the fragrance industry it's used for... In JEEF they always say class of 2022. It's like that. In the class there are so many like one from Russia, one from Spain, from France, Italy. It was like a mix, a very good mix of different students. Because even that, otherwise when you are around same people all the time, your perspective narrows down. And this really helped me to broaden my perspective. was a very cool experience. after the studies, because I know that the studies, for many people, the difficult part starts after the studies. So yeah, they have to start to find an internship and possibility to find a job or open their own brand, as some people did. But yeah, what was that like for you? So almost when I was towards completion of the course around November, I approached Keba again. Because I was very much in love with the European style of working and perfumery as well. The way they interpret fragrances, the way it is created, the way they think about. I was really impressed and I really wanted to continue the perfumery journey in Europe. So I requested if is it possible. for me to work in Europe because I knew that Kiva has their offices in Milan and Amsterdam and I was fortunate enough to have been given that opportunity. So that's why we are sitting here. By the way, by the moment you probably will be listening to this episode, I will be already in Denmark, but we haven't yet said that we are sitting in the Netherlands. You might be in a part of the world where you have never heard about the Netherlands or the Hague. So that's why I'm trying to be more precise. It's also a thing. Thanks in the Netherlands right now in my rented apartment, looks like a boxing party, not an unboxing, but a party. Yeah, and Tolkien smells. And the office of Kewa is also located in this beautiful country. So there is an office in Elmire and Elmire if I'm pronouncing it correctly. I believe it's more or less close. So something which you see and looks like A-L-M-E-R-E. It's the place we're referring to. So, yes, I work in Holland Aromatics which has been recently acquired by Kebab. So, I work on all categories and now I'm working as a junior perfumer and it has been a lovely journey as of now. I'm so excited because every day I have a new challenge, new kind of work and I'm working because it's across categories, the challenges in different categories are different. So to mask the odor of the base and the pH level and lot of chemistry along with artistic work. So the best combination I would say. Yeah, yeah, and I was thinking about it like you mentioned you all you work with all the bases Before we go to the artistic part, maybe you should just call the types of bases so that the listeners who has never like includes like all the products that you use from morning till night if you want to think about it like a shower gel, a soap, then toothpaste mostly has flavor and then there is shampoo, conditioner, hair mask, hair oil and there is a fabric care section which has detergent powder, liquid detergent, fabric softeners then laundry care basically. It could be industrial use also. Sometimes mostly it is for personal use like in the household. Then there is home care which has room spray, air fresheners, diffusers, electric diffusers, and the floor cleaners and the dishwasher. Then for the dishwasher, so it's all pH sensitive. Then toilet cleaners, bathroom cleaners, everything that comes for a household care. So everything has a fragrance as a part of it. So the product has a base plus fragrances added. That's how the product is complete. So there is personal wash, home care, fabric care. There is also candles which comes in home care. Rediffusers. do candles as well? wow. I mean, well, I'm saying why, because it's one of the most difficult bases. I am learning because I don't have much experience in candles but I have started to work on candles and I am understanding the technicalities of it. It's really challenging. With your curious mind, I'm pretty sure you will be doing fantastic. really learning to work on candles and then there is solid perfume again if it is water soluble or oil soluble also makes a difference and then there is fine fragrance deodorants, roll-ons more the niche and fine fragrance are more on the expensive side like with a high budget also the budget plays an important role in all these categories I think mostly we covered all these all the categories possible. I might miss out. But it sounds like Kiva does cover all the categories, which is also an important thing to consider. I know that some small-product producers, of course we are not talking about Kiva, but small producers, have specialization, so they don't just go to other categories since it's too complicated, they don't have enough knowledge, enough specialists to deal with these categories. Because here you have an application lab who especially also checks about the different bases. So there is body care which I missed out, which is like lotions, creams and body scrub. Then there is a special category for baby because for babies there are different regulations. So there is baby care. All of that literally every product that we use has fragrance like a sanitizer also, especially from COVID the sanitizers. has increased the usage of sanitizers. Yeah, but since you mentioned all these categories, there's one thing which I'm very concerned about. It doesn't have to be in connection to a particular company and anything, but you probably witnessed that right now there is a huge consumer demand for cleaner products in all regards. only hygiene. Yeah, yeah. I even also mean the content, the ingredients. So if we were very happy with having petrochemicals, well, of course we would continue having those, since a lot of raw materials are from petrochemicals, of course. those which are used in the base but do not have a fragrance in purpose, people want to have more visibility to understand more what's... Yes, what's inside. Yeah. Yeah. And there are more and more restrictions as the as more the more the researchers happen there are more restrictions like allergens like we need to always specify what allergens we are using on the label then there is biodegradability so we need to be careful about what ingredients we are using are it is it biodegradable or not in the future because again some things go in the waste so we need to know if they can be recycled reused So, lot of customers come up with saying that we need vegan product which is not from any animal source, no harm to animals and sustainable products which are sustainably sourced materials like without damaging the flora and fauna of the environment because if something is going to be endangered it doesn't make sense to be still cutting and using it. for perfumery. So there are a lot of ingredients which we no longer use because they are on the verge of being extinct or an endangered species so we avoid using those materials. So it's very important to take care of the environment while having this creative process. Well, I'm just really happy to hear that it also think, well, you're considering your daily job. yeah, I believe that most of the big companies do that or all of them. But just for our listeners, I wanted to raise your awareness that this is a really big field and a lot of innovations happening there because and also partly a reason to the problems we have. You know when every time I like read on a diffuser that it could be endangering the ocean life? Just look at it and flick on And also while blending, lot of times I've seen that if you use plastic pipettes, it goes in the waste and it's a big... It breaks my It's a huge pain. It was for me as well. It breaks my heart to see like the bags full of plastic pipettes just used once and then thrown in the bin. I would rather suggest or promote using the blotters to pour liquids so that you're not using plastic pipettes or you can use a glass dropper instead so that it can be washed and reused. If not, you can have it with your screw cap, the glass dropper. But please try to avoid Plastic Pippets Yeah, well at all costs please. Yeah, because it just generates lot of waste and all the plastic waste goes to the oceans ultimately. Even if you can recycle it, it's going to take ages for you to remove the smell from those pipettes and then recycle it. So it's better to avoid rather than recycling it. I would agree. Where you could do that, please, guys, consider it. But yeah, I believe everyone understands it, but for me it was also heartbreaking when I saw just... Yeah, yeah, it's like... And they say like you couldn't do anything about it. Well, actually I could. But guys, if it's something you really need for the creation process, well, these are the bad news for you probably, not just... use one blotter for every and then you can those papers can be reused and the you can always recycle the blotters but you can't recycle the pipettes. Right, so the good news is that we are on a sustainability journey with young and inspiring perfumers. But I want to ask you one thing. When you received the contract and it was written a junior perfumer, how did you feel? Like this, like, plate? I felt like yes, I am going one step closer because I want to be a perfumer. So it is one step closer to becoming a perfumer. So it was really an exciting moment. It's beautiful, beautiful. And also for you as a person who is like really into art and before the episode recording we've been looking at some paintings you made and well, I could say that if you haven't ever been in this corridor where you smell the things in your college, you would either be like very successful in a different field as well since like... Thank you. That's really kind of you. When I told you that I was inclined towards science, I was really thinking of becoming a doctor. And then I did one internship for two months in one hospital in Mumbai while I was doing my bachelor's degree. you put never again. And then when I saw blood and people in pain and screaming like out of pain I just thought that this is not for me because it was difficult for me to see that on a daily basis. I decided to drop that idea of becoming a doctor because I was really inclined towards studying medicine but then I did not go for it. then yes, other than that I was also constrained to go in the art line. to paint blood instead of seething. Exactly or create something that smells like blood. Okay. Yeah, so but then I am very much inspired to create fragrances and very much inspired by colors and nature and the travel experiences So especially painting so I just it's in my head. It's like I am painting of fragrance It does make sense. Because I associate the raw material so much with color that it's almost like a painting for me. I believe it's about an attitude. Probably you also have same attitude. don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, for other things you start doing. I mean, of course, like painting, it's painting, but if you like paint a fragrance, I also believe that you might be also thinking like that about cooking or about some other fields where it's some creativity required. Yes, that's true. It's mostly, it comes from an emotion I think. The core idea is to be able to express. So through paintings I am expressing myself. Also through fragrances I am able to express myself. That's the reason I want to be a perfumer. So that I can touch the lives of people who are smelling it. So that they also feel some emotion. It could be any emotion. Just they need to feel something. Well, it might be a surprise for you, but not everyone could capture an emotion in the meaning that you don't even sometimes realize you experienced it. Yeah, sometimes we it's in the subconscious sometimes we don't realize it but if you actually are conscious about everything around you then it relates better I was very surprised when you just showed me a picture of you after the trip with the city in India. Yeah, Jodhpur in Rajasthan. Yeah. You just captured the idea of the city on canvas. I mean, for me it's very hard to... I don't know how to say, to express this idea in some way. Even not to express it in painting as a visual art, but to even, you know, like, catch it. catch it to a form where I could think like, I need to express it because first I need to catch it. And it's so transparent that I couldn't do even the first part sometimes. Like, you know, this headspace technology we've been discussing. Yeah. need to, like, to put a lot of equipment on me to capture this idea. And when you not just capturing those, but you also could Afterwards present them in a different form. This is something very inspiring for me about you Thank you so much. So that was more the visual part and I would like to also translate into an olfactive experience. So it would be nice. It is a great idea in fact to create something inspired by that painting. It be nice. Well, maybe. Then I see the whole journey, like from the city which I've seen on the pictures. By the way, after this conversation, I now started considering going to India for my yoga teacher training. Definitely, you will enjoy Rishikesh. You should go to Rishikesh for sure. Well, right. And now I have to do that because I've seen the picture and now I would probably have an opportunity to have a smell and try it if you decide to go that far. But it's so interesting how the creative minds work and I'm happy you are there. I mean, you reached the point when you could be expressing yourself via these tools as well. Thank you. You're really kind. it's so pleasant. It's one of the... For those who might be considering launching a podcast, guys, the opportunity to have wonderful guests is probably one and only thing you need just to start it. go for it. Yes, please. It's an inspiring thing. One of the questions I have probably last but one before the bleeds part, which you don't know, what's that? Yes. But I will tell you. It's about aromatherapy. Like you said that the clients are right now much more conscious about the smells, about how they want to use them and their applications. Like, isn't that so for you as well that the demand for the aroma, like for extra calming qualities or extra energizing qualities? I have done that because recently I worked on a project for pillow spray. Like because of that smell in the background you fall asleep. It helps you to relax. So I believe it's one of the part of aromatherapy. Industrial way of looking at it as an aromatherapy because ultimately it's going to play with your senses. so you need to think what like me as a perfumer if I'm creating for a pillow spray. I need to think what is the fragrance that will relax my mind, which will calm me down. It cannot be something energizing. It has to be like calming and soothing. I feel aroma therapy plays an important role in understanding the mood of the fragrance. You almost moved to Blitz because one of the questions there, and I know them, but I will ask you, when you thought about these calming properties, what were your thoughts? Like initial... first thing which which I did was when I came across this kind of project was to look into the books because we also have a library so I looked into books there was like few books on aromatherapy as well so because the books always have a good amount of information so it had a lot of information about what so the common the most common which we most probably know is lavender which is has a very good sleep inducing property but In India there is one tradition for small children like babies they put like they put nutmeg the paste of nutmeg on the forehead and it makes you fall asleep so it calms down the baby so that from that tradition it's like you rub it on a stone like a hard stone and then you form like a small particles of powder and then you put little bit of water, make a paste out of that powder and put it on the forehead. So it has a sleep inducing property. So from that tradition, which means nutmeg oil could also have like we need to test and try. But from that tradition, I would definitely try nutmeg in the morning also considering all the regulatory aspects as well, keeping everything in mind. But yes, aromatic scents like cardamom, rosemary, thyme and like spicy cardamom is fresh spicy but also calming it has a calming effect then lavender, pacholi also has so all these informations I got from the book which I referred so which really helped me to get a direction before creating Again, you added your creativity since I believe Nutmeg might not have been there. was not so this comes from the traditional party which you have. So your background again, helped you to add some. something to that so there is like every tradition is different and there are so many different aspects in every tradition around the world so if everything just comes up together it forms a good mix I mean I don't mean the fragrances I mean the cultural aspects I really like this application, this particular one, mean this type of sprays. Since I remember it from like very long ago, in one of like 10-15 years ago, I've seen like a lavender sprays. Well, I never had those, but yeah, it's still interesting. Yeah, it's very calming and soothing, like you fall asleep. Yeah, well, but guys don't forget that first of all you need to like Have less stress gaze in the morning Yeah, so the spray won't help if you guys Yeah, if you've been like partying all day and then like wow, I mean It's just an extra spot when all the basics are met so yeah. Well, thank you for that Nutmeg thing, I will be considering since it sounds a little bit like from the Ayurveda perspective though I've never seen this particular practice there, it's just maybe a national thing to do, cultural thing. well, sounds good. I don't really like nutmeg in food, I don't know why. Yeah, it could be like a... it's subjective. My teacher recently, she's Turkish. Her parents are Turkish. She's Dutch, but of course culturally she still has some Turkish cuisine ideas in her head. And she recently recommended me, since I'm vegan, a mashed potato with a little bit of nutmeg there. And I was like, listen, what nutmeg? was like, no. I don't really like it in food. I'm fine with the smell. I like it, but not in food. And I think in the bechamel sauce for the pasta there is already nutmeg added. So probably guys knew that. If you buy a store bought one, I think it has nutmeg. Or if you see the traditional recipe, I think it has. Cool. So nothing new probably for some of our listeners, but it was really new for me. So, Blitz part. Well, it was a very lovely conversation. I'm... Well, I feel very thankful for having you today. But I prepared you something tricky. So what is Blitz? For those who don't probably know. It comes, I believe, from the German word Blitz. Closest I guess idea of what it is. It's something done very quickly. Okay Exactly, so it's like with a speed of light or anything and blitz questions basically mean I believe in different cultures They are called differently, but it's you just ask a question and the person answers without really thinking I Couldn't say that from there Right. Yeah, first part. I couldn't say at the same time that this is the most like efficient way of asking questions, since eventually you could still, I believe, sometimes answer first thought and it will not really reflect you. Okay. But it's still fun to do that. Yes. Then afterwards, when we finish it, I'm pretty sure you're gonna be like thinking, or at least I would be, if I were you, I would start thinking afterwards, did I answer that? Is it really me? Yeah, it could happen. I understand. We could rehearse it little bit, vanilla chocolate or sorry, vanilla ice cream or chocolate ice cream. ice Well, sure, of course. I'm also into chocolate ice cream. By the way, it could be genetically tested. Thank you choose... Well, I'll show you my genetic panel. Okay. I'm so interested in this. I knew that it would be chocolate and it was chocolate. it is too. So yes, it's pretty weird. But this is an easy one. Yeah, I got A simple one, but very easy. more. Yeah. So, opening a Blitz file. Rose or Jasmine? Rose Vanilla or Lavender Manila. Which last chord have you created? It pacholi. I mean it has pacholi in it. it but it's also rounded by something else to sound more patchouli than probably... The last fragrance I'm working on, the latest one is in and around Pachori. That's what I meant. So one of... Okay, it's a perfume around it. Yeah, if there was any recently... Fig. Fig, yeah, cool. I love it. One of my favorite figs. have a lot of things in common. So, dream destination for an olfactory inspiration trip. Okay Africa because I want to do the safari and I want to really see like how it inspires me olfactively. I believe it would... Knowing from what I've seen so far, yeah, you would be inspired definitely. Prefer time for a fragrance creation, day or night? Day. Well, would you prefer to create a signature scent for a Sunday brunch or a Friday night? Friday night out Okay, okay, okay. Energizing. So what last application you worked for? So wasn't this patchouli perfume you've mentioned or something? that is fine fragrance, the Pachole perfume. It's for competition by the way. I'm participating in the Pachole competition. Very cool. Could we leave it here in the podcast? Yeah. Okay, right. But surely competition, but last application from the whole panel you worked on. The pillow spray. What smell brings an instant smile to your face? Okay, let's think. well, yeah, he did. So if you could only use three notes in an alcohol based perfume, like first note of choice. okay it would be amber, patchouli and rose for sure So if someone from the listeners need to make a perfume or an application with this smell, they know where to find you. If you had to create a perfume inspired by a famous actor or actress, who would it be? Okay, can I say something else like what you don't expect? I'm not very much into movies and actors. I don't have an answer for this because I do admire people's work but not really inspired by any... Yeah, but if one then if I have to choose one it's Priyanka Chopra. Yeah, because... To some extent I can say she is very inspirational and I am inspired by her journey. Other than her, I don't think anybody else. right. She will deserve it. like perfume guilty pleasure. Is there a fragrance you secretly love but wouldn't admit to public that you love it? Probably because it's like too posh or it's too... it's everywhere or... yay! And I see, I smell it everywhere but I still love it. I wear it a lot. I love it. Yeah, so good to pleasure we know it. And as I've said, I know exactly when we will be live, but it seems like Christmas is coming. So, sparkling champagne or warm cocoa, which scent would be the celebration scent? Sure. Thank you, Sai. It's still pronounced like Sai. It's sorry, yeah. You're getting it. It's right. Thank you very much, Ania. It was really nice of you. It was really kind of you to have me here. And thank you for giving me this opportunity. This is my very first podcast. And because I listened to so many podcasts, I was very excited to do this, literally. Because I prefer to listen to different people rather than just watching something. So... Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. Likewise, and we will leave the links to the things you want us to share with the audience in the description box for this episode. Thank you. Thank you. And don't forget to subscribe, in case. The full one. just, well, trying to figure out which to use more. Tanya is easier. Tatiana is the full one. Sounds like a princess. Well, thank you and see you later. That was it.